Friday, May 28, 2004

Genesis 3:22-24

I'm finishing Genesis 3 tonight.

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


Not very many lines, but such implications. First of all, here is another "us" being used by the Lord God to describe ... themselves. Thirdly (I'll talk about the chronologically second issue last), there is a description of a flaming sword blocking the garden. And I wonder, why block the garden? Why not just destroy it, or hide it? Because, eventually, God did that, if the garden ever existed. And we know that He did because there is no flaming sword in the middle east guarding the entrance to anything today. The garden is gone, not guarded.

But those are minor points. Most importantly, there is this talk of a "tree of life." Why didn't I hear about this in Sunday school? A tree of life, that if man eats, man will live forever? I'd never heard of such a thing.

How long was Adam in the garden? And why did he never eat from the tree of life? He was not forbidden to eat of it. God only forbade eating of the tree of knowledge, that made man know good from evil. (Genesis 2:17) After the fall, why did God not want Adam to live forever? Is not eternal life the gift that Christ later brings to us? If God wanted to change his promise, why change back 1,000 years later? If God meant for us to have eternal life, why not open the path to the promised fruit of the tree of life? Why make us go through three millennia of struggle, and faith, and work, and doubt, and suffering, when we could just have eaten the fruit of the tree that God promised us in Genesis 1:29? This makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever. I have trouble believing that this is true, literally (for example, what would have happened if man had eaten of the tree of life first, to live forever, and only then sampled the fruit of the tree of knowledge, so as to die that day?) But worse, I can't even accept that this is true figuratively.

44 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Thomas, (doubting Thomas?), I just stumbled upon your "cry for help" over 4 years later (9/2008). Are you still there? I was amazed that there were no comments after so long! Go figure. Anyway, I am not sure why you are puzzled by the Lord God using "us" when it is clear throughout the New Testament that God is manifested in 3 distinct personalities (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) throughout scripture. The "trinity" picture is illustrated beautifully at Jesus' baptism. As to your "3rd" issue, "why block the garden?". The Tree of Life was blocked so that man would not eat of it and live forever in his now FALLEN state (after he sinned disobeying God's command not to eat of the tree of...). Consequently he would have then been trapped in his fallen state and beyond the redemptive work of Christ on the cross. Through Jesus we can now be reconciled back to God for forgiveness of sin (read John 14:6). Sadly because of this same fallen state, there is much that we can no longer see (read 1 Corinthians 13 in N.T). I therefore submit to you that the garden still exists, but is now no longer visible to the eyes of sinful human beings. Once we are COMPLETELY redeemed (BODY and spirit) at the second coming of Christ, then everything will become clear again (read 1 John 3:2). Not sure why you were never taught this in Sunday School...maybe you missed that Sunday? There is much we do not know now, and we can speculate endlessly as to why this and why not that. Ultimately the important thing is that WE KNOW that what we choose to do is what WE choose to do. God wants your love because you choose to give it to him and not because you were coerced to (He does not want "puppet" love). Therefore the one test God gave to man: if you love me, you will obey my commandemnts (read John 14:15). Man in the garden chose disobedience and we are still suffering for it to this day. However, now... just as through one man sin enetered into the world, through another we can be forgiven (read Romans 5:12) IF (that's a BIG if) we choose to be.
Again, there is still a lot that we have to take on faith, not every question can be answered (for now). But that is the way God designed it also. Just as God said years ago to another Thomas: "...'So, you believe because you've seen with your own eyes. Even better blessings are in store for those who believe without seeing.'" -John 20:28-29 (The Message) Anyway, I hope this helps you some...God will answer those you earnestly seek him...keep praying for that in faith!

September 20, 2008 at 4:23 PM  
Blogger Marshall said...

To the commentator above, I find the use of the trinity as a weak excuse. God the Father never replies in the plural again throughout the Old test. No further point is he (God) seen speaking in that format. Also chronologically God had not yet "splintered". He gives birth to to himself later, and the Holy Spirit only exist after Christ resurrection.

To the "do not eat of the fruit of life" excuse of living forever in a state of sin is absurd. Why does physical immortality exclude salvation?

Are there super secret rules for salvation I am unaware of that pertain to immortals?

I'd wager the story is Orphic in it's "become one of of" sense. It is a common theme in the occult that man can become immortal, and the deities want to forbid it.

September 22, 2008 at 1:58 AM  
Blogger Dudesup said...

Ummm, Marshall you said that he didn't splinter until after the Christ resurrection. How dose that make since. God is everlasting and never changes, he is the same now as ha was at the beginning of time, and will be the same at the end of the world.So if in the new testiment it say that there are 3 parts to God, there always has, and always will be 3 parts.

So the "us" refers to the trinity(in my opinion)

I agree with the first answer post, with the flaming sword interpretation.

Ok, tree of life. I think it simply refers to God's gift of everlasting life...salvation though Jesus Christ. What he said in that verse was basically that man has sinned and will die unless he eats from the tree of life, and what do we know is the answer to our sins? Yes, it is Jesus Christ.

As for the the last part of the first post, about making us go through strugle and troubles, God said (in Genesis 3:15-19) that we would go through hard ships, and trials. My opinion is that in those times they were lucky to have a lot more personal relationship with God, so I think that God would have given them a chance into heaven(even though they made their decision at the tree of knowledge, they choose to disobey and reject God).

Through the years leading up to Jesus' coming the Lord God always left man a choice on what to do with his life, and eternal life. in the time of Noah the bible doesn't mention any law but it dose say that the Lord grew displeased with the Earth saying it was "corrupted by the flesh", and filled with violence. So I believe then they were judged by their works. And later in Moses' time they were given a strict behavior they must follow to gain favor in God's eyes.

If someone wants to comment on something I said or has a better answer I would be very grate full if you sent it to my email at:
J.JohnstonS.S@Gmail.com

And I'm always looking for some more bible believing friends to discuss things with so feel free to send an email just to get to know me better

September 24, 2008 at 9:12 PM  
Anonymous Sonu Koshy said...

Hi All,
I agree to the commnet of trilogy(the Father,son & Holy Spirit).i disagree with marshall as the Holy Spirit is been there only after the resurrection of christ. As the scriptures says "As soon as jesus baptized,he went up out of the water . At that moment heaven was opened , and he saw the spirit of the God descending like a dove and ligting on him". Here it is clearly mentioned that the spirit has come down to christ.So the spirit already existed. There is no chance to beleive that spirit has been made on the spot by the father and sent to christ.Again most of the things are not revealed to us. If you wish you receive the knowledge please pray for that passage in front of the God and he will answer.

December 29, 2008 at 4:01 AM  
Blogger Dudesup said...

Or maybe this is God's answer to your request of knowledge :)

January 3, 2009 at 10:15 PM  
Anonymous Peter said...

I ran across this passage as I started to read the bible this year. My interpretation of the "us" is the trinity, besides the fact that God never changes, it is also important to note in John 1 where it states that the Word (Christ) was with God in the beginning, and that through him all things were made. References to the Holy Spirit giving inspiration to the prophets are also made in the old testament.
I am still somewhat confused by the part about the tree of life. But, if I recall correctly, the tree of life is mentioned as part of heaven in Revelation. Maybe this lends itself to to an interpretation of a different "tree." In some places of scripture, the cross is referred to as a "tree." Thus, perhaps the fruit of the tree of life is an allusion to communion, in the sense that we experience a sort of atonement through the cross of christ, as exemplified by communion.
Peter

January 4, 2009 at 9:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The word trinity is not found anywhere in the bible. The idea of the trinity is also not supported anywhere in the bible. Keep reading John 1:1 and taking it out of context all you like.

We don't know all the answers, the bible isn't to specific on what happened in paradise, but its likely that God would have allowed Adam to eat from the tree of life after a sustained period of time.

God could have destroyed the rebels right then and there, he would certainly have the right and power to do so. But Satan raised a question in the garden of Eden. Namely the issue of soveringty. Mans right to rule himself.

Notice Satans logic, "you would be like God, knowing Good and Bad" Implying that they could be like God.

The condition we find ourselves in now is Satans world. See John 5:19

God immediately made plans to save humankind, sending his son to earth to die for mans sins.

The reason you were never taught this in sunday school is that most churches rarely use the bible. If they do its normally taken way out of context. Such as the trinity doctrine.

January 6, 2009 at 6:59 PM  
Anonymous verite said...

Did anybody mention the fact that in millennia past, rulers and kings etc would refer to themselves in the plural sense! It's not abnormal at all. It's only after people invented the trinity that we've started to read this different meaning into it.

All this salvation talk is exactly the same way... this passage makes sense in the context of ancient religions and the jealousy of the gods. After the theology of Jesus and salvation was invented, today we can now totally twist this passage to mean something different. It's not even a good fit ~ it's really not hard to see that modern theology doesn't mesh well with this passage.

January 14, 2009 at 7:57 AM  
Blogger Dudesup said...

It's only after people invented the trinity...

Well it mentions the trinity many places in the bible. I do not think it uses the word "trinity" but the word is just a way for us to place meaning on the relationship between Jesus, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit.

The place I think of when I think of the trinity is in Matthew 3:16,17. After Jesus is baptized by John the Baptist. Jesus standing, Spirit of God descending, and the God the Father speaking from the heavens.

As for a good fit...I don't know. We cannot know the answer, and it's probably not that important in the grand scheme of things. But we are giving the possibilities as we see them, so someone with this on their mind can choose for themselves.

As for the Anonymous poster... I think of John 17:1 as a passage in the book of John, no saying the word Trinity, but showing that there are "parts" of God.

Next, God did allow Adam to eat from the tree. He is all powerful and all knowing, I'm sure if he wanted to stop us from eating a fruit he could have.

Satan raised a question...um what part of all know don't we get. He know about anything Satan did before he even bothered to create Lucifer.

I say Lucifer because God didn't create Satan. Lucifer chose to become Satan. So God didn't only give man the right to rule himself(if he couldn't rule himself, well how would they have eaten the fruit of the tree? Did God tell them to eat the fruit so they could disobey him and gain sovereignty? That makes no sense, because well how is listening to someone else sovereignty, and if they have free will well we where made with it), he also gave the angels the ability to choose.

And well immediately plans...your thinking like he perceives time like human beings. He knows everything, past and present. So he knew what was going to happen, what he was going to do, everything.

If have any questions, or just don't agree send me an email. I'll try to explain or I'll correct my little rant...

J.JohnstonS.S@Gmail.com

January 26, 2009 at 7:44 PM  
Blogger Elsid said...

I just came across this also.

The whole end of Genesis sounds like this.

Humans became like gods(multiple entities)

Then these gods kicked adam and eve out because they were afraid they would eat from the tree of life and be exactly like gods.

Someone needs to answer this, and not just the, god was referring to the trinity none sense.

March 19, 2009 at 6:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Verse 22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:"
#1 Adam and Eve had direct access to God, God’s Word, Truth and knowledge in the Garden of Eden.

#2 In the New Testament, Christ refers to Himself as that Word of God, Truth and as the true Manna (bread), which came down from heaven.

#3 Referring to Himself as Manna (bread), Christ says that whoever fails to eat of his flesh and drink of His blood (spiritually feeding from the Word of God, Truth, Manna – the Scriptures) will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
#4 Adam and Eve had direct access to this Living Word, Manna, Truth and knowledge, which they were to spiritually feed upon.
#5 This would have built their image (the image of God), which they were created in, with the truth of God = you are what you eat!
#6 Instead, Adam and Eve began to inwardly feed or spiritually feed (obtain knowledge and their own version of truth) apart from God.
#7 This eventually leads to determining good and evil for one’s self and others, which is to put one’s self in the place of God.
#8 Hence, “the man is become as one of us, to know (or determine on his own) good and evil:”

This must be closer to the actual meaning of this verse since “man” had not become like God in that man suddenly new good and evil the way that God does. That is not possible.
Also,
Just as Christ says that adultery can be committed inwardly without the outward act, so desiring to be like God can be committed inwardly as well. Adam and Eve had been inwardly (spiritually) feeding (obtaining knowledge) apart from God long before they ever outwardly ate in order to obtain knowledge apart from God. When they ate, or committed the outward act, there spiritual eyes were simply opened to their spiritual reality, which they saw (interpreted) in a physical way (feelings of shame from being uncovered). God had been their spiritual covering, and now by the choices they had made, He wasn’t.

The Tree of Life?
Scripture says that eternal life is “knowing” God. And not just the name or word “god”, but the substance of His name. And that in truth.
Did the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil really posses the ultimate knowledge of good and evil? No. So why would the Tree of Life have possessed ultimate life, when life equals knowledge of God?
Like the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the Tree of Life was probably a test. If cherubim with flaming swords had to be posted to keep Adam and Eve from reaching the tree of life, it was only because of their futile understanding of life, which got them where they were in the first place. Even today you will find that all sin fits within the categories of these 2 trees. As fellow Adams and Eves, we all make daily attempts to obtain knowledge and life apart from God.

May 24, 2009 at 12:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So here it is…. All I ask is that you answer the question from the Bible. No speculation or I prayed about this and the answer is (blank). I’m OK with an “I don’t know!!!!”

When you read the story of creation you find something that at best is very strange!

Gen 2 tells the 2nd story of creation. The 3rd day:


Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The bible then talks about the 4 rivers…..

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

So here god tells Adam that in the day you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and bad you will surly die. Notice he never said anything in this verse about the tree of life. Also god defines “a day” one chapter earlier…

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Some will quote 2 Peter 3:8 which said that for god a thousand years is like a day but this is a misquote, which you can see if read in context.

2Pet 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

It’s basically saying that god does not have a sense of time like man and that he is patient but a time will come for his judgment.
Back to where we were. God defined a day (a morning and an evening) and never spoke of the consequences of eating from the tree of life.

He then creates the animals after which, Eve was created out of Adam.
Gen 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
Gen 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Gen 2:23 And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Starting in Gen 3 it talks about Adam, Eve and the serpent. By the way the bible does not say that this was Satan or the Devil. It was a serpent because the hiss was like a whisper as seen here in the Hebrew lexicons

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H5175

Continued

August 20, 2009 at 9:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

So the serpent told her that she would not die and that their eyes would be open and would be as the gods.

God find out that they had eaten from the tree and tells them what is in store for them. The chapter is ended with this statement.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So the serpent did not lie. In fact it would seem that god was the one that deceived Adam and Eve by saying “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”

Some people say they died spiritually which is in fact speculation and I think that argument wouldn’t hold much weight because god himself said they became more like him. It was a step forward not backwards although it may have not been their place to take that step on our own.

The serpent also told the truth here “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
This is backed up by the response by god “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil”

Then god kicks them out of the garden not because of their sin but to prevent them from eating from the tree of life “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

They were kicked out so that they would not have the knowledge of the gods and everlasting life. This last verse also proves that man was in fact mortal and unless they were to eat from the tree of life he would have in fact died.

Please explain if possible:

Why would god tell Adam on that very day he would die if that was not the case?

Where do you find original sin in the Bible and if Adam was going to die anyway (ie. Tree of life) then how is sin and death tied together?

Where is it determined that the serpent is the devil and why would he tell the truth if he is the father of the lie?

I read the Bible often and like many people you are told something and you assume that what the Bible said. I tried to document everything well so that everyone could see what was said and that it's not taken out of context.

August 20, 2009 at 9:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

God did talk to Adam about both trees.

"But those are minor points. Most importantly, there is this talk of a "tree of life." Why didn't I hear about this in Sunday school? A tree of life, that if man eats, man will live forever? I'd never heard of such a thing.

How long was Adam in the garden? And why did he never eat from the tree of life? He was not forbidden to eat of it. God only forbade eating of the tree of knowledge, that made man know good from evil."

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

August 20, 2009 at 9:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For the ill informed people who claim there is a trinity. If Jesus is also God, how could Satan offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth for one act of devotion? That seems a little silly doesn’t it!!!!!

August 20, 2009 at 9:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here is another fact that you can add. When God said Die it in fact meant the end of Life. The Hebrew work used was "muwth". Which is also a root word meaning it doesn't take meaning from something else. Here are the definitions according to Strong's Lexicons:

1) to die, kill, have one executed

a) (Qal)

1) to die

2) to die (as penalty), be put to death

3) to die, perish (of a nation)

4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)

b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch

c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death

d) (Hophal)

1) to be killed, be put to death

a) to die prematurely

Here the web address
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H4191#

August 21, 2009 at 12:03 PM  
Blogger Richard said...

I reference to questions asked 9/20/09
Why would god tell Adam on that very day he would die if that was not the case?

Where do you find original sin in the Bible and if Adam was going to die anyway (ie. Tree of life) then how is sin and death tied together?

That was the case, but for some reason God had mercy on them. For the wages of sin is death... The disobedience of the comandment of God is Sin. From some reason God has mercy on us. God implemmented attonement that day in Gen 3:21. God killed innocent animals and made coats of skin. We see later in levitical law that this is a way of providing temprol attonement for sin. In Gen 3:7 Adam & Eve see themselves naked where they didnt before. In the garden they were innocent, as children, easily beguiled. The serpent was cunning, but when used to lead Eve to defy the word of God. Now we know that the serpent is being used by satan. To this point satan & his follower are the only beings used to defy God.

March 9, 2010 at 12:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why would god have mercy on them?

We are talking about God here. He told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth just as he told Noah to replenish the earth after the flood. That means this wasn’t gods first time at the dance. There was something here before us.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

As for god making atonement of their sin by killing an animal and giving the skin, that is pure speculation. No one can say for sure that is what god had in mind.

I somewhat agree with the last part but I have no biblical proof (Just like you have no proof). Instead of children, I think they were more like animals, totally unaware of themselves. Their “I” ness or their ego. They were like a robot or a computer, they did what they were programmed to do and that’s it. They could do no wrong because they lived instinctually. If a lion rips a zebra to shreds, is it wrong or bad? No because that is what it must do to survive. We may feel pain in seeing that happen but that is because we relate the zebras pain, to the pain we would feel. Think about a life where you could do no wrong and that is what you will come up with.

March 25, 2010 at 4:42 PM  
Blogger Richard said...

Why would God have mercy on anyone, yet for some reason he sent his only begotten son to die for a creation he loved.

The word Replenish in strongs hebrew is.

1) to fill, be full
a) (Qal)
1) to be full
a) fulness, abundance (participle)
b) to be full, be accomplished, be ended
2) to consecrate, fill the hand
b) (Niphal)
1) to be filled, be armed, be satisfied
2) to be accomplished, be endedc) (Piel)
1) to fill
2) to satisfy 3) to fulfil, accomplish, complete
4) to confirmd) (Pual) to be filled
e) (Hithpael) to mass themselves against

God simply asked them to multiply.

God said they would die if they ate the fruit, yet they lived. The only atonement God has ever implimented is blood sacrifice. Thats how we could know that God killed animals. Not only for coats but for atonement.

Look at what God said just after the flood. Gen 8 21. God says mans heart is evil from his youth.

March 27, 2010 at 9:07 PM  
Anonymous Heartwashed said...

The natural mind CANNOT understand the things of God, because they are foolishness to him, nor can he know(understand) them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1Corinthians 2:14.
Trying to understand the Bible through natural reasoning is a frustrating and empty exercise. Scripture has to be revealed by the Holy Spirit. In addition, a person who approaches the Bible with an 'I'll prove God wrong' attitude never understands the secrets of God. A humble attitude of 'God, I don't know anything unless You show me' will open the way for revelation. I personally have found there are no contradictions in Scripture, but powerful truths, hidden from the natural eye, but when revealed bring joy and faith.

July 20, 2010 at 10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said previous post.If we were able to figure out God,then He would not be God.He decides who to show mercy and who to punish. The Potter decides how long the clay stays in the fire, what shape its molded into or if he chooses , may discard it. The fact that He gave us choices does not authorise us to question His motives.

August 7, 2010 at 10:44 PM  
Blogger Richard said...

Well said july 20 post.
I totally agree; Its by the spirit of God that revelation is given. Its the Holy Ghost that brings the word of God to light. Its is Jesus that is this Light according to John 1.

August 8, 2010 at 10:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When God told Adam that he would die if he ate of the forbidden fruit that certainly didn't mean physical death since he didn't die but spiritual he died or was cut off from the life of God.

Since man is a spirit he has a soul(mind, will emotions) and his body is the container for spirit and soul. I think we can confer that Adam died spiritually.

When man dies physically his spirit & soul continues to live and goes to heaven or hell. You can see this in the account of Lazurus & the rich man in Luke 16:19-31, the rich man recognized Lazurus when they both were dead physically, so we can see from that portion of scripture that we remember our life and other from when we were on earth.

August 11, 2010 at 8:55 PM  
OpenID stephenwhitt said...

This is great stuff! I am fascinated by the existence of the hero who continually saves us from the gods. This hero appears in myth again and again. Think Prometheus, who stole fire from the gods and delivered it to humans.

It is so clear that there is this very adversarial relationship between man and God in the book of Genesis. First is the Garden of Eden, in which there's clearly this undercurrent of God not wanting his moronic little pets to get out of control (Frankenstein?) Then there's the story of the tower of Babel, in which God fears his creations once again. Don't let them talk with one another, cause who knows what they might accomplish. Then there's the horrible Abraham story, the most tragic in the bible, because through Abraham man finally loses, gives up all independence, is rewarded specifically for being spineless.

Read "Paradise Lost" with this realization. God wants pets. Satan tries to be free, and is punished for it.

This theme, this character who just wants to be free and trust him/herself appears again and again. Huck Finn saying "alright, then, I'll go to hell!"

Jean-Luc Picard in the final episode of Star Trek TNG "We are what we are, and we're doing the best we can. It is not for you to set the standards by which we should be judged!"

MacBeth "I will not yield"

And of course Prometheus, the bringer of fire, the father of science.

Genesis 3:22-3:24 is the beginning of our great adventure. We were once pets, but we took our lives into our own hands. We make mistakes, we die, but it makes us alive. It makes life worth living. That's the message of the Eden story.

You are one of the things the universe can do; atoms contemplating atoms, the universe alive in you. You get one chance, don't waste it. Know yourself. Know your world.

The "religious" will tell you to beware of my message, that it's worldliness and will lead to destruction. Well of course they would say that! Take a leap of faith. Trust what you know is true in your heart. There is no god. It's you, it's me, it's the universe. Trust yourself. See what you can do.

September 25, 2010 at 9:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trust yourself and see what you can do? What's the point of gaining the whole world? Will that stave off death? You may be remembered for a time but so what? You may not contemplate death now, you may think it is far off in the future for you. Life IS pointless and meaningless apart from God! Do whatever makes YOU happy! Just imagine a world like that, all the pedophiles raping children, all the Jeff Dahmers killing and eating sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters... loved ones of others, loved ones of YOU! Rapists fulfilling their desires with your mother or daughter or whatever or whomever satisfies at that moment. If you claim there is no God then by logical extension you advocate a free-for-all, anything goes! Who are you to tell me I can't tie you up and rape your mother while I make you watch! If that is what I enjoy and we are just "atoms contemplating atoms" and "the universe alive in you. You get one chance, don't waste it. Know yourself. Know your world." If that is true don't complain when someone steals your identity to benefit himself or cons your grandmother out of her life savings. Are you going to tell me it is wrong? If so, by whose standard are you judging? Yours? If my standard is different then who is right? Both? None? One or the other? Remember the Bully in school? He could do whatever "wrong" he wanted to anyone but if he was "wronged" in the same manner that he doled out he would seek to exact revenge on one who "wronged" him. He'll steal your lunch money but what if you steal his? Go ahead and con the con-man's grandmother out of her life savings and no doubt he'd be angry. Therefore he condemns himself for his actions by condemning you for yours. It's pretty easy to see if your eyes are open. Welcome to an existence apart from God! Anything goes, and everything is permissible! I don't have to answer to anyone or anything! That is essence of freedom in the ultimate sense! There is some sense of morality in most people, thank God for that! Albeit a perverted and changing sense! Christ exposes and describes the human heart perfectly! I agree with Him about the state of my heart! I'll use His standard of right and wrong and not my own. There are countless things I condemn others for and yet I do them myself. Just as we all do! Open your eyes! "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2. Now tell me that all this right and wrong nonsense is just evolutionary baggage that allows our species to survive. If that is true then right and wrong is just an illusion. Laws are based on what a culture perceives as right and wrong. Therefore laws are really a product of an illusion and should be treated as such. OR... there is ultimate truth, right, wrong, good, evil. That is what our laws are based on, our perverted and changing sense of that. AND... the correct and unchanging standard is God's law. Try and imagine a world where everyone got over their evolutionary baggage of right and wrong and did whatever they wanted. This world would have no laws because laws are based on right and wrong and right and wrong are evolutionary baggage! Scary. Now imagine a world where everyone obeyed the teachings of Jesus perfectly even if they did not believe in God. They lived and perfectly followed it… Utopia. As a human you can't live that way that's why Jesus Christ was sent to us. Accept Him or reject Him. God has pulled back the cloak of eternity and created a universe of time for us to live in to choose life with Him or without Him. Right now if you don't know Him you have life without Him. That, one day, will end.

November 29, 2010 at 3:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trust yourself and see what you can do? What's the point of gaining the whole world? Will that stave off death? You may be remembered for a time but so what? You may not contemplate death now, you may think it is far off in the future for you. Life IS pointless and meaningless apart from God! Do whatever makes YOU happy! Just imagine a world like that, all the pedophiles raping children, all the Jeff Dahmers killing and eating sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters... loved ones of others, loved ones of YOU! Rapists fulfilling their desires with your mother or daughter or whatever or whomever satisfies at that moment. If you claim there is no God then by logical extension you advocate a free-for-all, anything goes! Who are you to tell me I can't tie you up and rape your mother while I make you watch! If that is what I enjoy and we are just "atoms contemplating atoms" and "the universe alive in you. You get one chance, don't waste it. Know yourself. Know your world." If that is true don't complain when someone steals your identity to benefit themselves or cons your grandmother out of her life savings. Are you going to tell me it is wrong? If so, by whose standard are you judging? Yours? If my standard is different then who is right? Both? None? One or the other? Remember the Bully in school? He could do whatever "wrong" he wanted to anyone but if he was "wronged" in the same manner that he doled out he would seek to exact revenge on one who "wronged" him. He'll steal your lunch money but what if you steal his? Go ahead and con the con-man's grandmother out of her life savings and no doubt he'd be angry. Therefore he condemns himself for his actions by condemning you for yours. It's pretty easy to see if your eyes are open. Welcome to an existence apart from God! Anything goes, and everything is permissible! I don't have to answer to anyone or anything! That is essence of freedom in the ultimate sense! There is some sense of morality in most people, thank God for that! Albeit a perverted and changing sense! Christ exposes and describes the human heart perfectly! I agree with Him about the state of my heart! I'll use His standard of right and wrong and not my own. There are countless things I condemn others for and yet I do them myself. Just as we all do! Open your eyes! "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2 Now tell me that all this right and wrong nonsense is just evolutionary baggage that allows our species to survive. If that is true then right and wrong is just an illusion. Laws are based on what a culture perceives as right and wrong. Therefore laws are really a product of an illusion and should be treated as such. OR... there is ultimate truth, right, wrong, good, evil. That is what our laws are based on, our perverted and changing sense of that. AND... the correct and unchanging standard is God's law. Try and imagine a world where everyone got over their evolutionary baggage of right and wrong and did whatever they wanted. This world would have no laws because laws are based on right and wrong and right and wrong are evolutionary baggage! Scary. Now imagine a world where everyone obeyed the teachings of Jesus perfectly even if they did not believe in God. They lived and perfectly followed it… Utopia. As a human you can't live that way that's why Jesus Christ was sent to us. Accept Him or reject Him. God has pulled back the cloak of eternity and created a universe of time for us to live in to choose life with Him or without Him. Right now if you don't know Him you have life without Him. That, one day, will end.

November 29, 2010 at 3:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trust yourself and see what you can do? What's the point of gaining the whole world? Will that stave off death? You may be remembered for a time but so what? You may not contemplate death now, you may think it is far off in the future for you. Life IS pointless and meaningless apart from God! Do whatever makes YOU happy! Just imagine a world like that, all the pedophiles raping children, all the Jeff Dahmers killing and eating sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters... loved ones of others, loved ones of YOU! Rapists fulfilling their desires with your mother or daughter or whatever or whomever satisfies at that moment. If you claim there is no God then by logical extension you advocate a free-for-all, anything goes! Who are you to tell me I can't tie you up and rape your mother while I make you watch! If that is what I enjoy and we are just "atoms contemplating atoms" and "the universe alive in you. You get one chance, don't waste it. Know yourself. Know your world." If that is true don't complain when someone steals your identity to benefit themselves or cons your grandmother out of her life savings. Are you going to tell me it is wrong? If so, by whose standard are you judging? Yours? If my standard is different then who is right? Both? None? One or the other? Remember the Bully in school? He could do whatever "wrong" he wanted to anyone but if he was "wronged" in the same manner that he doled out he would seek to exact revenge on one who "wronged" him. He'll steal your lunch money but what if you steal his? Go ahead and con the con-man's grandmother out of her life savings and no doubt he'd be angry. Therefore he condemns himself for his actions by condemning you for yours. It's pretty easy to see if your eyes are open. Welcome to an existence apart from God! Anything goes, and everything is permissible! I don't have to answer to anyone or anything! That is essence of freedom in the ultimate sense! There is some sense of morality in most people, thank God for that! Albeit a perverted and changing sense! Christ exposes and describes the human heart perfectly! I agree with Him about the state of my heart! I'll use His standard of right and wrong and not my own. There are countless things I condemn others for and yet I do them myself. Just as we all do! Open your eyes! "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2 Now tell me that all this right and wrong nonsense is just evolutionary baggage that allows our species to survive. If that is true then right and wrong is just an illusion. Laws are based on what a culture perceives as right and wrong. Therefore laws are really a product of an illusion and should be treated as such. OR... there is ultimate truth, right, wrong, good, evil. That is what our laws are based on, our perverted and changing sense of that. AND... the correct and unchanging standard is God's law. Try and imagine a world where everyone got over their evolutionary baggage of right and wrong and did whatever they wanted. This world would have no laws because laws are based on right and wrong and right and wrong are evolutionary baggage! Scary. Now imagine a world where everyone obeyed the teachings of Jesus perfectly even if they did not believe in God. They lived and perfectly followed it… Utopia. As a human you can't live that way that's why Jesus Christ was sent to us. Accept Him or reject Him. God has pulled back the cloak of eternity and created a universe of time for us to live in to choose life with Him or without Him.

November 29, 2010 at 3:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trust yourself and see what you can do? What's the point of gaining the whole world? Will that stave off death? You may be remembered for a time but so what? You may not contemplate death now, you may think it is far off in the future for you. Life IS pointless and meaningless apart from God! Do whatever makes YOU happy! Just imagine a world like that, all the pedophiles raping children, all the Jeff Dahmers killing and eating sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters... loved ones of others, loved ones of YOU! Rapists fulfilling their desires with your mother or daughter or whatever or whomever satisfies at that moment. If you claim there is no God then by logical extension you advocate a free-for-all, anything goes! Who are you to tell me I can't tie you up and rape your mother while I make you watch! If that is what I enjoy and we are just "atoms contemplating atoms" and "the universe alive in you. You get one chance, don't waste it. Know yourself. Know your world." If that is true don't complain when someone steals your identity to benefit themselves or cons your grandmother out of her life savings. Are you going to tell me it is wrong? If so, by whose standard are you judging? Yours? If my standard is different then who is right? Both? None? One or the other? Remember the Bully in school? He could do whatever "wrong" he wanted to anyone but if he was "wronged" in the same manner that he doled out he would seek to exact revenge on one who "wronged" him. He'll steal your lunch money but what if you steal his? Go ahead and con the con-man's grandmother out of her life savings and no doubt he'd be angry. Therefore he condemns himself for his actions by condemning you for yours. It's pretty easy to see if your eyes are open. Welcome to an existence apart from God! Anything goes, and everything is permissible! I don't have to answer to anyone or anything! That is essence of freedom in the ultimate sense! There is some sense of morality in most people, thank God for that! Albeit a perverted and changing sense! Christ exposes and describes the human heart perfectly! I agree with Him about the state of my heart! I'll use His standard of right and wrong and not my own. There are countless things I condemn others for and yet I do them myself. Just as we all do! Open your eyes! "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2 Now tell me that all this right and wrong nonsense is just evolutionary baggage that allows our species to survive. If that is true then right and wrong is just an illusion. Laws are based on what a culture perceives as right and wrong. Therefore laws are really a product of an illusion and should be treated as such. OR... there is ultimate truth, right, wrong, good, evil. That is what our laws are based on, our perverted and changing sense of that. AND... the correct and unchanging standard is God's law. Try and imagine a world where everyone got over their evolutionary baggage of right and wrong and did whatever they wanted. This world would have no laws because laws are based on right and wrong and right and wrong are evolutionary baggage! Scary. Now imagine a world where everyone obeyed the teachings of Jesus perfectly even if they did not believe in God. They lived and perfectly followed it… Utopia. As a human you can't live that way that's why Jesus Christ was sent to us. Accept Him or reject Him. God has pulled back the cloak of eternity and created a universe of time for us to live in to choose life with Him or without Him.

November 29, 2010 at 3:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Trust yourself and see what you can do? What's the point of gaining the whole world? Will that stave off death? You may be remembered for a time but so what? You may not contemplate death now, you may think it is far off in the future for you. Life IS pointless and meaningless apart from God! Do whatever makes YOU happy! Just imagine a world like that, all the pedophiles raping children, all the Jeff Dahmers killing and eating sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters... loved ones of others, loved ones of YOU! Rapists fulfilling their desires with your mother or daughter or whatever or whomever satisfies at that moment. If you claim there is no God then by logical extension you advocate a free-for-all, anything goes! Who are you to tell me I can't tie you up and rape your mother while I make you watch! If that is what I enjoy and we are just "atoms contemplating atoms" and "the universe alive in you. You get one chance, don't waste it. Know yourself. Know your world." If that is true don't complain when someone steals your identity to benefit themselves or cons your grandmother out of her life savings. Are you going to tell me it is wrong? If so, by whose standard are you judging? Yours? If my standard is different then who is right? Both? None? One or the other? Remember the Bully in school? He could do whatever "wrong" he wanted to anyone but if he was "wronged" in the same manner that he doled out he would seek to exact revenge on one who "wronged" him. He'll steal your lunch money but what if you steal his? Go ahead and con the con-man's grandmother out of her life savings and no doubt he'd be angry. Therefore he condemns himself for his actions by condemning you for yours. It's pretty easy to see if your eyes are open. Welcome to an existence apart from God! Anything goes, and everything is permissible! I don't have to answer to anyone or anything! That is essence of freedom in the ultimate sense! There is some sense of morality in most people, thank God for that! Albeit a perverted and changing sense! Christ exposes and describes the human heart perfectly! I agree with Him about the state of my heart! I'll use His standard of right and wrong and not my own. There are countless things I condemn others for and yet I do them myself. Just as we all do! Open your eyes! "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:2 Now tell me that all this right and wrong nonsense is just evolutionary baggage that allows our species to survive. If that is true then right and wrong is just an illusion. Laws are based on what a culture perceives as right and wrong. Therefore laws are really a product of an illusion and should be treated as such. OR... there is ultimate truth, right, wrong, good, evil. That is what our laws are based on, our perverted and changing sense of that. AND... the correct and unchanging standard is God's law. Try and imagine a world where everyone got over their evolutionary baggage of right and wrong and did whatever they wanted. This world would have no laws because laws are based on right and wrong and right and wrong are evolutionary baggage! Scary. Now imagine a world where everyone obeyed the teachings of Jesus perfectly even if they did not believe in God. They lived and perfectly followed it…Utopia.

November 29, 2010 at 3:22 PM  
OpenID stephenwhitt said...

Hi Anonymous,

It's nice to meet you. Thanks for your comments. I understand your point of view. In your view world, I am a sinner bound for Hell. You're trying to save me. That's very kind of you. What's worse, I'm trying to take others with me, and you're trying to save them, too.

Here's the problem. I have no reason to believe your view of the world. I've looked at the evidence and concluded that you're wrong. Nothing personal, and of course I could be wrong, as well. But you won't convince me with this kind of argument. You'll convince me with evidence.

In my view of the world, we already live in the world you describe, where we have to decide on our own morals and values. Sure we make mistakes, but we're doing the best we can. Nature is nasty. I don't want to live in a society governed by natural selection. I want to live in a society where men and women come together and decide on laws and customs that protect everyone.

I'm reminded of the Tin Man in the book version of The Wizard of Oz.

Thereafter he walked very carefully, with his eyes on the road, and when he saw a tiny ant toiling by he would step over it, so as not to harm it. The Tin Woodman knew very well he had no heart, and therefore he took great care never to be cruel or unkind to anything.

“You people with hearts,” he said, “have something to guide you, and need never do wrong; but I have no heart, and so I must be very careful.”

For those of you with less certainty about the world than Anonymous, I repeat my last paragraph:

The "religious" will tell you to beware of my message, that it's worldliness and will lead to destruction. Well of course they would say that! Take a leap of faith. Trust what you know is true in your heart. There is no god. It's you, it's me, it's the universe. Trust yourself. See what you can do.

December 7, 2010 at 7:50 AM  
Blogger stephen said...

anonymous said
"Do whatever makes YOU happy! Just imagine a world like that, all the pedophiles raping children, all the Jeff Dahmers killing and eating sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters... loved ones of others, loved ones of YOU! Rapists fulfilling their desires with your mother or daughter or whatever or whomever satisfies at that moment."

I was wondering if it is a fear of Gods wrath that keeps him from doing all of these things. Is it human nature for these things to make anyone happy? It must be a frightful world to imagine that a world filled with people having these desires and that it is only the law and belief in a wrathful God that keeps people from this kind of behavior.
Is there anyone here that has such desires, who in the abenece of a belief in God would find happiness in rape, murder and other forms of viloence?
What we do know is that the divorce rate among people who claim to be born again Christians is higher than those who claim to be atheist.

Concerning a God that uses the term "us" when referring to himself because of the trinity, it is faith in the church not in God that forces such convoluted thinking. I have a mind and body, but don't go around talking about us when i am talking about myself.

Jesus asks God that if possible remove the burden of crucifixion from him and concludes, "thy will not my will be done". There are many other instances of Jesus making clear that he is not "the father" and has no power of his own but is an intermediary. There will be some who quote other scriptures where Jesus claims to be one in the same as God. This is true but unfortunately just as in the two creation stories, we are left to make sense where there is none.
I was taught the Nicene creed, but only later read for myself how it came to be. The council was created to end the conflicts between the various sects. Trinity won. The other sects were deemed heretical and by law were forced to change or be taken over by the "true faith". Things were a settled matter for only a short while however and at one point there were two competing Popes each one excommunicating the other. I invite anyone with an open mind to read that the early church fathers wrote. One Pope in particular, can't come up with his name, was hopeful that it might be possible to look down from heaven and seen all of the unbaptized babies crawling around in hell. an interisting wish!!

The protestant view of the literal interpretation of the bible comes mainly from Martin Luther. Please read "On the Jews and their lies" to appreciate the warped mind of that "founder".

January 23, 2011 at 3:50 PM  
Anonymous yminoh said...

Anonymous said...The person who posted this is welcome to Torah Study anytime :-)

June 15, 2011 at 3:43 PM  
Anonymous yminoh said...

Sorry..the one who began his comment with:

"So here it is…. All I ask is that you answer the question from the Bible. No speculation or I prayed about this and the answer is (blank). I’m OK with an “I don’t know!!!!”

June 15, 2011 at 3:45 PM  
Anonymous Junie said...

'Us' as in all of them in Heaven (GOD, the son Jesus Christ and the Angels)

BELOW ARE SOME THINGS SAID TO ME BY A VERY WISE PERSON Marie Nurse Esthetician: (http://marienurseskincare.blogspot.com)


God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son...John 3:16.

JESUS SAID: "...If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

JESUS SAID: "but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father." John 14:31

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation Colossians 1:15
(This is me speaking now: My son is the Image of his father as well. You know why? Because he is his father's son. Just as Jesus is GOD's Son. As Jesus himself says in many Bible Scriptures)


"After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God." Mark 16:19

JESUS SAID:"...and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28

JESUS SAID: "And he that sent me is with me; he hath not left me alone; for I do always the things that are pleasing to him." John 8:29

JESUS SAID:"...the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God." 1 Cori 11:3

JESUS SAID: “… My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me." John 7:16

and John 3:16 tells us who sent him. IT'S SIMPLE PEOPLE. We who are true Christians and ACCEPT Christ as Our Lord and Savior are also IN UNION. Stop Confusing the Union as All 3 Merged into 1! That's an error that is causing many to Deny GOD.

February 13, 2012 at 7:05 PM  
Anonymous Jerone said...

I will try my best to answer the questions that many of talked around. I know this is a really old post, but wanted to get the truth out:

"Us" could very well be the trinity.

It could also be "God, Jesus, and the Angels" As they would all know of good and evil. Satan is proof that angels knew of good and evil.

But I think the trinity makes a lot of sense. At the very least, God and Jesus Christ could be us. (John 1:1)

Why block the garden? Why not just destroy it, or hide it?

If you were kicked out of your home and you didn't want to leave, wouldn't you try to return? I believe that the garden with the flame swored was a reminder to Adam and Eve of what they did for some time until it was destroyed. This is pure speculation I mean, God could have still been using the garden for reasons unknown to us.

Overall, I think this was simply God's decision. He didn't want to destroy it at that moment. So I'd leave it at that.

As you said, those are minor points, so lets move on...

-----
A tree of life, that if man eats, man will live forever? I'd never heard of such a thing.

How long was Adam in the garden? And why did he never eat from the tree of life?

He was not forbidden to eat of it. God only forbade eating of the tree of knowledge, that made man know good from evil. (Genesis 2:17)
-------------
I can only account for 1 day that Adam was in the Garden. The reason is because he was created on the 6th day. Genesis 1:26-31

I'm not sure if he was in the garden on the 7th day. (The day of God's rest)

If there were many trees in the garden, it's very possible that Adam did not know the benefits of eating from the tree of life. There is no indication in the bible that says that Adam knew of immortality if he were to eat from the tree of life. It only says that he found this out when he had eaten from the tree of knowledge. (Genesis 3:22)

----------------------
After the fall, why did God not want Adam to live forever? His punishment was to die for disobedience. (Genesis 2:17)

Is not eternal life the gift that Christ later brings to us?

Absolutely, but we are already spiritually dead. In order to recieve eternal life through christ, we must be "born again". (Read John 3)

------
If God wanted to change his promise, why change back 1,000 years later?

God never changed his promise. We are spiritually dead. But he had mercy on us and gave us Jesus Christ for salvation (eternal life)
----------

If God meant for us to have eternal life, why not open the path to the promised fruit of the tree of life? Why make us go through three millennia of struggle, and faith, and work, and doubt, and suffering, when we could just have eaten the fruit of the tree that God promised us in Genesis 1:29?

Again, this is all part of our punishment for sinning against God. Remember what God said in Genesis 3:14-19 (Consequences)

Eating from the tree of life only gives us immortality. It doesn't cleanse our sins. Jesus provides both cleansing and eternal life.
-------
What would have happened if man had eaten of the tree of life first, to live forever, and only then sampled the fruit of the tree of knowledge, so as to die that day?) But worse, I can't even accept that this is true figuratively.
___________________

Pure Speculation: I don't think it would have been much different. Had they eaten from the tree of life and be able to live forever, God's word would have still stood in that eating from the tree of knoweledge would cause them to die. So in my opinion, it wouldn't matter. We would still need salvation.

In spite of that, living forever combined with sinning with no penalty of death is not acceptable to God. The penalty for sin is death. So Jesus saves us from eternal death by dying for our sins and he did in fact die. (Although he came back in 3 days).

- J

December 6, 2012 at 11:43 AM  
Blogger lis said...

Possible 'us' explanations

1) the serpeant was an agent for God to test man. so us could mean us who are aware of good and evil.

2) us in a sense where a parent would tell his/her adult child you are now an adult. you are one of us...working adult or whatever

3) us in a sense of a human who knows right from wrong and not an animal.


4) us in the sense of the trinity. i could qoute scriptures, but i'm on a phone typing this...so i offer this thought. since God is.omnipitent (sees everthing everywhere) I can see why he would use us.

5) really an continuation on 4.... Since God is omnipetent (spelling i know..) if he is everywhere, all the time, if he is the beginning and the end and all that, and man was created in his.image, i geuss that means we aren't exact replicas of God but sorta like him.It is possible that neither or both man and woman. god isn't a he or she, but all. and when speaking of all in first person you could use'us'. just a thought.

February 18, 2013 at 9:10 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

stephenwhitt states his belief and stands by it in his posts. I respect his calm response to the hypocritical comments he received.

The multi-posting anonymous MUST NOT believe Jesus's teachings from Matthew 5:28 where believers are taught that thinking of sinful things is equally as sinful as doing them. He thought of things like "Who are you to tell me I can't tie you up and rape your mother while I make you watch!" and then went even farther to meticulously type the sentence for others to read. By your Jesus's own words, that anonymous poster has already made people watch him rape their mother in his own heart.

The purpose of this life is for us to find out and to fulfill our role on this earth. If you choose your role to be that of a believer in Jesus then live towards that goal. If you choose a different role then that is fine as well.

I am my own God. I do things to bring greater glory upon myself among my peers just as your biblical god wants you to do for him. Why work for another's glory if you can work for your own? Why beg forgiveness from another entity if you do not feel that you have wronged them to begin with. If I tell you that my followers must kill 100 non-believers for every 12 full moon cycles you are alive and you do not do this for me then I could really care less UNLESS you are one of my followers and have subjected yourself to MY rules. Until the day that you subject yourself to my rules, my rules mean nothing to you. The biblical god's rules are the exact same. If you choose him then you choose his rules as well. Do not be fooled by Gods who use fear tactics on you, the cleansing fire most place fear upon is the fire I crave. For that fire is the one which will purify my spirit and free it from the shackles of this world's existence. The shackles of this human form which constricts and constrains me into an existence limited by time. By breaking through the limitations of time I shall move up to the next plane of existence.

My words are left for you to read and accept or reject at your digression. I will not respond directly to questioning, but those who truly pray to me in private may be given enlightenment. If you do not like my answer you must just deal with it as best you can just like all the other god's demand of you with their responses. Unlike the biblical god, I will not be returning for my believers. My followers will seek and gain knowledge about how to find me!

Seek out and know your role. If you find yourself to be a follower and in need of external direction then find something worth dedicating yourself to and follow it.

March 4, 2013 at 2:55 AM  
Blogger vrfontanotg said...

I think that many people are absurd talking about God, I sense a lot of fanatic practices here.
First of all, since thousands years ago many civilizations are waiting for the return of their Gods , India is waiting for krishna, Mexico is waiting for Quetzalcoatl, Christians are waiting for the return of Jesus, and everything cames from long time ago that the Prometheus was with the same history, I think that every God mentioned here is the same and from the same part of the universe,

No body here has proof of anything, just thoughts and bible stuff but I the only proof I got is that the pyramids in Egypt, Mexico, and the Indians Hopi in the US has the same common link, somebody coming from the skies, and their structures has exactly form of the Orion's belt and the only possibility is that we could come from there since the beginning of the human being and our Gods are there somehow.

Open your minds for possibilities and don't get scam for groups of fanatics that are blind and don't want to understand this.

August 18, 2013 at 1:06 PM  
Blogger vrfontanotg said...

I think that many people are absurd talking about God, I sense a lot of fanatic practices here.
First of all, since thousands years ago many civilizations are waiting for the return of their Gods , India is waiting for krishna, Mexico is waiting for Quetzalcoatl, Christians are waiting for the return of Jesus, and everything cames from long time ago that the Prometheus was with the same history, I think that every God mentioned here is the same and from the same part of the universe,

No body here has proof of anything, just thoughts and bible stuff but I the only proof I got is that the pyramids in Egypt, Mexico, and the Indians Hopi in the US has the same common link, somebody coming from the skies, and their structures has exactly form of the Orion's belt and the only possibility is that we could come from there since the beginning of the human being and our Gods are there somehow.

Open your minds for possibilities and don't get scam for groups of fanatics that are blind and don't want to understand this.

August 18, 2013 at 1:06 PM  
Blogger vrfontanotg said...

I think that many people are absurd talking about God, I sense a lot of fanatic practices here.
First of all, since thousands years ago many civilizations are waiting for the return of their Gods , India is waiting for krishna, Mexico is waiting for Quetzalcoatl, Christians are waiting for the return of Jesus, and everything cames from long time ago that the Prometheus was with the same history, I think that every God mentioned here is the same and from the same part of the universe,

No body here has proof of anything, just thoughts and bible stuff but I the only proof I got is that the pyramids in Egypt, Mexico, and the Indians Hopi in the US has the same common link, somebody coming from the skies, and their structures has exactly form of the Orion's belt and the only possibility is that we could come from there since the beginning of the human being and our Gods are there somehow.

Open your minds for possibilities and don't get scam for groups of fanatics that are blind and don't want to understand this.

August 18, 2013 at 1:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous, just read your response, very well explained. Lits of poeple do not take the time to get to know and understand who God is and who He is not and that there, as you said there are some things that are not to be revealed to us here in this world.

August 31, 2013 at 10:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A simple answer to genesis 3 is that we all want to be gods of our own lives. Given the time and chance, everyone on this post would eat of the tree.

September 17, 2013 at 10:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well said anonymous!
(All scripture references is from the NIV)
I know one thing to be true is that we do die and (most, not ALL) of the things that are deemed wrong eventually lead to death. Our bodies become aged due to gravity and other things. According to God’s time ( 2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. Adam nor anyone else live a day. They died inside of that time span. (Genesis 5:5 Altogether, Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died. Nobody came upon the thousand years. Methuselah came close. Genesis 5:27 Altogether, Methuselah lived a total of 969 years, and then he died. Paul said when I would do good evil is present just as in the garden. Romans 7: 14-25 14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
I believe in God because sometimes as humans we can’t handle knowing good and evil because following the word of God has helped me not to do a lot of things that others would call wrong and helped me to do things that others call right. Forgiving someone for doing me wrong is NOT logical to me, but according to the bible we must forgive and I find that really forgiving people and letting things go really takes a lot of unnecessary weight off me because most of the time a grudge is what I would carry while the other person is sleeping and going on with their life, whether they apologized or not. I learned that from the bible because others and my own intuition would have told me to attack the person. According to some, raping may be right (I don’t think it is). Who’s right, if my right is wrong according to someone’s right that I believe is wrong? If you say it’s me then you’re wrong according to the other person. If you say the opposite then you’re wrong according to what I believe. Just as most white Americans in the south believed that segregating, lynching, and murdering African Americans was right during the 1960’s and before. So, without the Bible and God in this part, that leaves us with one thing, and that is we have to be governed by something or anything would really go.

December 24, 2013 at 11:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If anyone saw the movie Bruce Almighty where he being God had gave everybody a yes to their prayers. After doing that, the city ended up in total chaos. Since we all became like God and we are little gods around here (which I believe because it states it in the bible in Psalms 82:6). What are we gods all doing with our world today? We say united we stand and divided we fall, the bible states that those who believe are one body that has to work together. Our body parts should be in sync with each other in order to properly and normally function. If it doesn’t, we would say that something is wrong or not right. So, to say that everyone needs to find their own right within themselves is like the hands saying to the brain I don’t want to catch and protect the whole body from falling because I don’t think it’s right. The whole body would end up hurt. We have to meet at a median somewhere. There is a right and wrong, a yin and yang, and there has to be a truth. I believe from the beginning it was a setup because think about light. What is light? The answer is simply the absence of darkness. We need positives and negatives (that’s how batteries work). I can appreciate feeling good because I know what it’s like to feel bad. I appreciate and am more conservative with money because I know what it’s like to blow it not to have it. I can appreciate feeling well because I know what it’s like to be sick. The bible says our thoughts are not like His thoughts and our ways are not like His ways. That’s why we are having this conversation now. The one thing God will not do is force himself on us because He desires a true relationship. This means we can choose to or not to accept and believe in Him on our terms and He’ll still love us because true love is not based on if person 1 loves and treats person 2 right. It’s based on the fact that person 2 loves person 1 whether person 1 loves person 2 or not and there’s nothing person 1 can do about it. That’s the love of Christ, the biggest key we’ve been missing this whole time. Jesus came in humble and left humble. He said remember Him no longer in the flesh, so while we debate about Him we forgot the principles He taught and left us that we still have trouble doing today. GENUINALLY, UNCONDITIONALLY, TRULLY LOVING EACH OTHER! Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Oh, we today, even me sometimes are ready to throw the stone, but when it’s our turn we want mercy. Jesus being perfect could have cast the first stone but he didn’t and said I don’t accuse you either even though she was as guilty as can be. So, the bible says that He didn’t destroy the way. It says He put the flaming sword there to KEEP the way. God wants to reconcile with us, but sometimes we want it our way just like in the beginning. We act no different from Adam and Eve. They truly are our father and mother. We are very curious like them. When someone says don’t go or look behind that door, oh we can’t help but wonder what’s behind that door, but when we go or look behind that door we are then held responsible and accountable for what we know and see.

December 24, 2013 at 11:19 PM  

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